Where do special standout plants come from?

midwest

midwest

Member
So I've been pondering...and figured I should pick the brains of you all.

The question is:
What generation of seed is most likely to deliver a special plant that stands out beyond it's siblings and parents?

The Dutch seed company belief seemed to be that F1 hybrids of unrelated stable IBL lines was the best seed. And for vigor maybe. But is that where you really find the standouts?
Another option is that F2 generations result in the most extreme expressions of the original parent lines. So perhaps this is where they would be? But I don't get the impression that many famous keepers came about this way.
Then F3 and F4...My reading of the DJ Short history on Blueberry is that the F3 generation was where the standouts were. But maybe that's me misunderstanding? It's hard to tell.
Then we got the BX's and Selfed seeds. Seems a lot of the famous Keepers came about this way.
Or are mutts the best? Should you just roll the cosmic dice and cross some mixed up stuff together?

Or is my belief in the super stud standout plant wrong? Is that marketing hype? Are the keepers really above and beyond?
Thoughts?
 
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F1s are certainly a good place to look. They have hybrid vigor, and may combine the parents' best traits, if you get lucky.

F2s show more variation, so that's the place to look for more extreme expressions of traits seen in the F1 generation, and also for recessive traits. F2s used in crosses can make great F1s.

F3 and beyond, well it really depends. If the F3 generation was created using multiple parents and open pollination, then the variation you see in F2s can continue. If OTOH the pollination was selective, you will see a "narrowing" of expression (toward an IBL).

And when you're talking polyhybrids (like DJ Short's BB), it's really hard to say what you may see (Didn't he use three different seed lines to make BB?).

:2c:
 
Awesome plants come from any generation, selfed seed, bag seed, mishaps, and so on. I don’t think it matters what gen or seed your growing.

I feel the best chance to find outstanding plants is by growing lots of plants. The more you can look through the better your chances. Popping 10pks of different lines(helps to start with good genetics) you are relying on luck of the draw. Not digging for the gold, just growing and hoping for the best.

Get hold of a line that interests you and grow 100 or more. “ I can’t grow 100 plants in my small indoor” yes you can, 10/20 at a time, yep it’s gonna take a bit time wise, that’s called work, slogging thru a multitude of plants to score the keeper.

Look back over the past 20yrs, what elites immediately come to mind, most are very old cuts now, they are still around, have stood the test of time.

Cuts being hyped these days, and there’s a shit load, have nothing on the old gals. They pretty much all have the same weak effect, they look good and smell/taste good, but are boring to the bean.

Exceptional plants only come around once in a blue moon, you would think with the number of growers around the world we would be swimming in um. Just goes to show how often they pop up. Extremely rare.
 
I agree with CBF, a numbers game which is also helped via community like here. It’s hard to keep the label F1 these days too as the P1 stock most breeders are using today is far from a stabilized line.
 
Yeah...I look around at the traded "elite" cuts and don't see much of a pattern.
Most seem to be kept because they are the origin of the line and no seeds existed. The only stable breeding traded cuts that I can think of are Bubba and some of the old hazes and NL. Maybe Cali-o too. Bubba I assumed waa an Afghani heirloom. But maybe it isn't. Maybe it's something that was selfed and backcrossed a bunch of times and that's how it got stable.

You take the chem line which I'm growing right now for instance. Started as S1 bagseed so the story goes. And from my reading there are multiple elites from the same batch. The original 91 Chem doesn't seem to be standout and obviously superior to the D or 4 which are siblings...Or is it?

On blueberry...that's a good point. They aren't really f3 and f4 gens. They are inbred from a mutty cross.
 
same with domesticated animals……few far between worth feeding…..the better you’ve had the greater the find becomes to exceed….

unadulterated lines that have been kept strong/clean are becoming a thing of the past….this is what separated yesterday’s kind vs today’s hay……

ganj on…..
 
I’m on a diff mindset with breeding than most in todays game.
I can’t honestly take much from the past on Dutch breeding as a positive direction for the cannabis gene pool.
P1 are seriously hard to come by now days so a true f1 is extremely hard to even produce.
As far as keepers now days it’s mostly a crap shoot. So many diff poly poly being thrown around no telling where some of those preferred traits even came from.
I look to the heirlooms and landrace genetics for things that aren’t necc main stream flavors and highs. Also use multiple males and fems(usually) in all my breedings I want to see things that bring me back to the 80’s early 90’s in the end product. unique flavors, long lasting highs etc.. so many of todays poly poly are similar and hard to even tell the diff between.
One that was killer when it first surfaced was the c99 line. First couple generations were great but as it was inbred lost many of the good qualities of the orig smoke. Grow a batch out now and it’s unremarkable at best.

On the orig bubba there is lots of speculation where it actually came from. Back when bubba was found s1 wasn’t even a thing. Know one even had that concept on their mind. It was prob a hermi seed. I remember way back having kind bud and finding one seed deep in the middle of the bud. Maybe five or six per lb. These were more than likely from bananas within the bud, cannabis’s survival trait when no males are around.

I have to agree on the large numbers for finding awesome phenos, every pant is different.
Could go on and on but will refrain.
-ct-
 
There’s an objective and subjective component to Elite strains. How it grows, and yields, are more objective and flower time was a greater consideration for some growers—outdoor especially. High type is far more subjective. I like older strains as well as new.
 
Imo the standouts of today are based solely off hype like names and packaging and the breeders following. If I put out donkey balls no one is going to buy them. If seed junkie puts out donkey balls they will
Sell out in an hour. I see these guys on the gram and whatever they are selling the followers are buying and nothing else matters. Put out one hype train strain and everything to follow will be hyped as well.
Marketing outweighs everything else in todays market. Like deer man’s quinoa extract, doesn’t matter if you have been growing for 20 years without it his followers can’t do another grow without it. And it’s marketed as the more you use the better the results the more magic you will see.
 
One reason the elite is hard to find is males play such a huge role and are not as easy to spot as the female.
In some lines the males way over power the female in expression
I’ve been thinking that sending males to be tested would be helpful
Granddaughter up got to go
 
as i get older, i find myself looking for that special buzz, not just something that will knock my dick in the dirt. It's gotta have that special something for me, that happy, feel good, weirdness. I find that most often in simple crosses - Skunk, G13, LA Confidential. Hippy slayer and Blueberry are part of that group too. old school stuff. the poly poly hybrids rarely do it for me.
 
I also think testing is part of the problem now days. I’ve smoked more than a few elites from dispensary folk that tout the numbers from testing. Most of the ones Ive smoked are pretty pot and taste good, look great but lack in intensity and duration of effect.
Molokai citrus kush only tests about 14 percent total thc but completely wrecks ya for couple hours as compared to a newer elite that tests high 20’s in total thc.
Most costumers go to the dispensary and ask for the highest testing cultivars and pass over killer herb such as the Molokai citrus in favor of the high test values as compared to sampling both and making a decision based on quality.
 
I wish I had that problem. Been in town 44 years. I haven't smoked any special pot here in 30 years when I would run into some at work. Bought touted seeds, tried a small degree of blind selection and pollen spreading with predictably unpredictable results. No super weed but a few good smokes, hitting the taste and effect buttons. Had 1001 seeds in the stash, some real good and others yet to run, but lost all them. So mostly growing for fun and stash using commercial seeds and gifted seeds.

7/2018 Vermont legalized recreational weed. There are yet no storefronts. And as the MMJ growers will also be in the rec business I'm not expecting much. Dispensary edibles were weak, the bud was often old and dry and there was nothing close to having a full menu of buds available. They had on-line order and you go to pickup and they didn't have that ounce of bud, or any ounces and only eights of my selection. Pfft Stopped with that noise. :aaargh:
 
Using THC% as a buying metric is real, but speaks to a lack of sophistication in the purchaser. That’s reasonable at this early stage of mainstreaming cannabis. I know my tastes have evolved over a couple decades smoking. The market will evolve as well.

I have consumed old school, and modern flowers and mostly live concentrates, and I honestly like many of each. To me, many of the older strains I’ve tried—SSH, Kali Mist, PakistanI Chitral Kush, Hawaiian Snow, etc… have a milder floral terpene profile. Or, MTF and to some extent Durban, amongst others are very piney. Or, the many Lemon crosses. Many of the poly hybrids are playing with different terpene profiles—not surprisingly mixes. But, it’s all interesting expressions of what weed can be. Cereal Milk has caryophyllene in it—which is true of Romulan I believe. Zkittlz is pretty straightforward mix of Grapefruit and Grape Ape, and to me tastes like a mix of the two with grapefruit flavor dominant. Lemon Tree is incredible—Lemon Skunk x Sour D. What’s not to love there? Same with Lemon Drizzle. Wedding Cake mixes well and done right is very pleasant, so no surprise it’s been crossed to everything. Many are really great. Kush Cake, Captains Cake, etc.

I remember picking seeds and stems out of Mex brick weed, and Beasters, all while being at risk of arrest. Whatever the issues of today are, the past had them as well. For decades, I’ve heard many growers lament the loss of particular weeds of yesteryear, which had lower THC but more interesting highs, while law enforcement touted the rise of THC content. Right now, I’m much of the US, and Canada, and increasingly south and Central America countries are legalizing or decriminalizing. That provides new opportunities for those interested in preservation to succeed. They are in far less legal jeopardy, with much more advanced equipment. All they have to do is carve their niche, which will absolutely have a market share. Growers can run many 12 week strains and get a proportional increase in volume over a 6-8 week strain. What no one can really do though, in a capitalist market is grow 22 week sativas unless the salable bud is 3-4 times what can be reliably grown with 6-8 week strains. The finickiness can’t make them money losers. But, good news is that those growers will do better in a legal setting as well—they just won’t dominate the overall market.

Like practically everything in life, a bell curve shows the distribution of pot from worst to best, and those two ends have small numbers. Most weed sits in the center of the bell, and we subjectively argue which is “best”. Every Holy-Grail strain was somebody’s favorite, that a bunch of people really liked.
 
A true story here!

About 10 years ago, a buddy called me over. He had a couple elbows he had to move...from his neighbor's uncle who lived in the Monmouth/Independence area. The weed looked ok, smelled good...but there were NO crystals. Breaking it open, looking on the bracts...nothing. They were bare. It hadn't been kiefed at all, because there would be resin stalks and the crystals they didn't get inside. When I say it had no crystals, it's exactly what I mean. I've never seen anything like it, I even questioned if it was actually pot or not.

A couple months go by, and the uncle drops more weed off at my friend's neighbor's house. I go to check it out again. It's the exact same strain, appearance/smell/taste wise. This time, there were some crystals. The smell was very strong, about 3-4x stronger than the first time. Had to wrap it up good to keep it contained. The high was obvious but weak. Took quite a bit to get the job done...

More time goes by, another shipment shows up. This one is better than the last. Decent quality, great smell, taste, and appearance. Had no problem moving it.

Then, the 4th shipment showed up. I could smell it from the apartment complex parking lot as I got out of my car. Anyone within a city block could have followed their nose to his doorstep, lol. This time, the buds were inundated with crystals. Pungent, permeating odor that could not be contained by any means. The stone was intense. Narcotic and confusing. We ended up just shoving food into our mouths like they were wood chippers...punching each other in the shoulders when we least expected it (as a gag) and laughing at the dumbest stuff...then falling asleep on the couch--waking up in the early afternoon covered in cats wondering what exactly happened.

Sadly, the neighbor and his uncle were just after coke money, so they spiraled downhill and more of this strain never showed up again.

My question is...WHY was this strain increasing in trich production each additional harvest? It was the same strain (taste, smell, appearance) only the trichome quantity and trich density had skyrocketed.

What process was I witnessing that caused these harvests go from unsellable to an absolute elite unicorn quality?

Were these progressions of F1, F2...etc?

I'm still puzzled by the whole thing, WHATEVER the grower was doing, he knew something I didn't and I haven't been able to figure it out...
 
So...I've always been a hobby grower. In 20 years I've probably only seen a few hundred different females. I'd grow 10 or 15 seeds of a strain and see 2 or 3 phenos emerge. And for all intensive purposes I always considered each pheno to be interchangeable with others of the same pheno.

For example I grew 2 packs of Mr Nice SHH over the course of that 20 years, making it the most of any strain at about 30 seeds.
And IME 3 very clear phenos emerge . And while each plant was unique especislly in plant structure, in terms of taste there was 3 clear types. Tne one I liked I always assumed leaned NL. And I didn't like the more haze ones as much or what I assumed was the more skunk leanimg ones
Lost it and refound it from seed 4 times. Each of those mothers was unique but none really stand out in my head as being far better than the others within that pheno in terms of final product.


Now is the numbers game approach eventually going to a turn out a super stud version of that pheno that I would say is just clearly better? Or just ones that are all slightly different and maybe some slightly better than the others?

Or is the numbers game approach going to eventually turn out some kind of recessive trait that I haven't seen before and some of those might be super awesome and worthy of keeping? Not necessarily having much to do with the pheno I liked? Like say...DJ Short Flodica
 
quote

"are using today is far from a stabilized line.”

>>imho when you have a "stabilized "line you have achieved mediocrity

ie.every single Dutch variety has gone downhill since the first f1 offering
 
I think it comes down to having good foundation genetics, numbers and luck. I don’t know the exact science behind it, but due to cannabis’ wind pollenated nature, it’s impossible to breed and get results like you see with F1 vegetables. The plants evolved to to be wind pollenated and this creates diversity in a population, which stengthens that population. Polyhybrid since the beginnings.
 
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