Dolomitic lime

Well, that you know better than me is not so interesting.
But when you even know better than the professional Dutch flower and vegetable growers is quite special.
And now it seems to be that you even know better than Canna and Metrop,............well, you must be God Almighty.
Hail God Almighty. :adore:
 
And I say: " The differance between soil and hydro is only marginal"

Unless you provide the nutrients as chelates or stuff like SuperFK, you must be between 5,2 and 6,2. Optimum is 5,6-5,8

Canna.nl :

What is the importance of the pH-rate?

The acidity (pH) influences the availability of the various nutrients for the plants. You ensure, therefore, that the pH always remains within the proper range. Optimum availability of nutrients in the substrate is at a pH of 5.2 to 6.2.

CANNA however recommends different pH limits for different substrates:
• TERRA: 5.8 to 6.2
• COCO: 5.5 to 6.2
• Other: 5.2 to 6.2
 
Omni, if you are staying with pure organics than the proper pH range is near 7. No ifs ands or buts about it. If you are using chem ferts then the proper pH range is exactly what CANNA is recommending.

I don't agree with everything Annaba says, like I can't see how you can mix peat and lime in the proper proportions and NOT get the same results every time, but this time he is right.

I do not believe in your philosophy of adding chemical nutes when it's convenient or profitable either. Just because Big Agriculture does it does not mean it's ideal, in fact it's often the opposite. I'll stick as close as I can to organic, I believe it yields superior fruits, veggies and cannabis.
 
The difference between soil and hydro is the clay/humus complex. (not or almost not availeble in hydro)

So, in hydro there is (almost) no buffer of pH and minerals.
That's way hydro food must contain Ca, Mg, S and a pH buffer.
No more, no less.

I don't know where you get your info, but I made a living of mine.
And I got my knowledge on a specialized high school in Haarlem / Holland.
And, if I may say, no-one is better in growing flowers and vegetabes than the Dutch.
Be Dutch, don't believe me, believe the $$$$$$$$$$ or better €€€€€€€€
 
I have an honest question regarding organics. I've been doing a "living soil" approach for 2 years and was under the belief that I don't need to ph my dechlorinated water. That organics will naturally ph itself. It's a peat based mix with dolomite lime added.

I was recently told by a friend that I should always ph my water. However , he grows in a coco based organic mix.

I was going to switch the next round to the coco instead of peat , with the same formula. Any reason I would need to ph my water then?

This is my base mix... straight from Overgrow.

1 bale pro mix ( can be substituted with 7 cubic feet of coco)
2 bags fox farm ocean forest ( substituting roots organic this round)
1 large bag worm castings
2 cups bone meal
2 cups blood meal
1 cup kelp meal ( optional)
1 1/2 cups dolomite lime
 
Annaba said:
I don't, an never have pHed my water in soil...fer anything. My tap, although slightly changes seasonally, is usually round 8.0 - 8.4. I'm led to believe coco is less forgivin, an pHin the water is usually recommended. I have no coco experience.

I don't dechlorinate either...(why is that not a word?)
Click to expand...

I don't pH the water for my coco plants. They don't seem to be showing any issues related to pH either. When I did hydro, as long as I properly mixed my nutes, I never fussed with the pH either. I use to chase the pH in hydro until someone told me to stop. Then I'd watch the pH slowly bounce from the low end to the high end of the optimum pH range but never over or under. He told me as the plant takes nutrients out of the water, the pH would drift and allow the other nutrients to be taken up in their respected range. Not sure if he was right or wrong but things seemed okay so.....
 
In my experience with growing organically in coco, the more organic nutrients and additives you add to the mix the more it will act like peat-based mixes, and the optimal run-off pH will raise to being between 6.5 and 7, pH will fluctuate less and become less important to measure. The less you add to the mix the lower the optimum pH range until it gets to around 6.1 with no additives and only organic teas. With no additives coco is basically a hydroponic medium, organic nutrients or not, and pH measurement can become very important. No matter what the method, in my experience if things go off in coco, run-off pH is one of the first things which should be considered.
 
Thanks all. I do use teas and some additives. That's my base mix. My goal is to keep the soil from compressing over time so I can reuse it. It may be 50/50 Peat Coco until I get my feet wet enough.
 
Professor Iglofski said:
In my experience with growing organically in coco, the more organic nutrients and additives you add to the mix the more it will act like peat-based mixes, and the optimal run-off pH will raise to being between 6.5 and 7, pH will fluctuate less and become less important to measure. The less you add to the mix the lower the optimum pH range until it gets to around 6.1 with no additives and only organic teas. With no additives coco is basically a hydroponic medium, organic nutrients or not, and pH measurement can become very important. No matter what the method, in my experience if things go off in coco, run-off pH is one of the first things which should be considered.
Click to expand...

Good answer!

I'd agree with this and the stability of the pH is why I use and recommend peat based mixes with some coco added. Coco does have the ability to exchange ions at a more rapid pace vs peat so it's not a bad amendment but I have seen nothing but problems for most folks who try to use it as a hydroponic medium. I'd at least go 50/50 on the peat/coco ratio maybe more like 60/40 peat/coco.

With pH what is helpful to remember is that (as the good Prof mentioned :)) in organic systems the pH is buffered by the soil mix while in hydro there is little to no buffering going on. With organic systems it's very possible to raise the pH of the soil way above 7 by pHing your nute mix with a pH UP product... when you add an acid or base to an organic mix you are changing the alkalinity of the soil but not necessarily changing the pH. It's only when a buffer is consumed/overwhelmed that the pH will change. So when you add pH UP to an organic nute mix you are adding to the alkalinity, eventually you will add enough to overcome the buffering ability of the humic acid and other acidic materials in the soil and the pH will raise above 7. Even if you only pH your mute mix up to 6 or so this can still cause the soil pH to raise over 7. It's not super intuitive without learning some chemistry and I've often found it difficult to train hydro grows to grow in soil without freaking out about the pH all the time and trying to "correct" things that aren't a problem.

In my system I use a large volume of soil so the pH is more stable and you have a larger "sweet spot" to get the soil balance right.... the smaller the container you use the more critical it is to get the mix right. With soil beds you have a HUGE margin for error when adding lime and nutes in between cycles.

The better you keep your soil in the sweet spot, the more the grow will be an expression of the plant's genetics rather than a product of the system it's being grown in. In hydro it is more difficult to not have the system make a large contribution to the plant's growth... I've been able to identify what hydro system and even what nutes the grower uses just by seeing the buds produced.
 
@Dorje,
When I grow organic or specially biodynamic, I must cut corners because I have a little volume and a short grow.
In a biodynamic grow I feed the soil. But because it is slow, specially with a cool soil, I must correct this with pré-digest organic food where the minerals are direct available.
Also in a organic grow pH is very important, for the same reasons as with mineral grows.
But when the balance in the organic soil is correct, there is also micorrhiza and countless other fungi, bacteria and yeasts.
They make for instance the P available for the plant, also above pH 6.2.

So, organic/biodynamic is slower and more forgiving.
But an organic grower most be a very good professional, or he will be out of work very quickly.

In Holland are pré fermented, molasses based plant foods as BioTrissol (3-3-6)and BioLasse (3-2-6) that gives the most city amateurs a good chance of a nice result.



Dorje said:
Omni, if you are staying with pure organics than the proper pH range is near 7. No ifs ands or buts about it. If you are using chem ferts then the proper pH range is exactly what CANNA is recommending.

I don't agree with everything Annaba says, like I can't see how you can mix peat and lime in the proper proportions and NOT get the same results every time, but this time he is right.

I do not believe in your philosophy of adding chemical nutes when it's convenient or profitable either. Just because Big Agriculture does it does not mean it's ideal, in fact it's often the opposite. I'll stick as close as I can to organic, I believe it yields superior fruits, veggies and cannabis.
Click to expand...
 
@The Joker,
Every soil have to "live", even stone wool slaps are invested by good bacteria, fungi and yeasts.
On soil I use BioBasis http://www.innogreen.nl/biobasis + extra micorrhiza mix.
Except when I use composted cocopeat, that is already filled with life.

I can only speak for Nederland and Belgium. We have RHP (Regeling Handels Potgronden = an very strict control system for potting substrates)
http://www.rhp.nl/en/consumer/
http://www.rhp.nl/en/professional/
A RHP substrate is fixt and stable. So don't ad extra lime, unless you know for sustain that your plant need that.
You can ad something as bentonite or clay, and compensate that dilution with some extra lime (max 2-3kg/M3)
If you give more you disturb the balance in your substrate.
A standard mix have pH 5,5-6, for Buxus 7.

In Nederland the tap water is often better than bottle water, so here in de-chlorinated water non-sense.
But this local, so see the Cl content on the site of your tap water suppler.

Also in a organic grow is the rule: "Zeker weten door zuiver meten"
= Be sure by measuring carefully.

Don't trust God, my grandfather say'd, he makes only jungles. :exactly:

You say:
1 bale pro mix ( can be substituted with 7 cubic feet of coco)
2 bags fox farm ocean forest ( substituting roots organic this round)
1 large bag worm castings
2 cups bone meal
2 cups blood meal
1 cup kelp meal ( optional)
1 1/2 cups dolomite lime[/QUOTE]

The first two I don't know, bone meal gives P and Ca, + traces.
This gives a good root ball. But don't overdo. P gives also long internodes.
Blood meal gives N, Fe and traces. don't overdo, specially not with sativa's.
Kelp is very good, but sometimes it contains to much iodine (I) that is a big risk, so be careful.
Dolomite can have 5-15% MgO. You must know what you give, to know if you can get a problem later. In a bio grow I like Mearl and Lithotamnium better. http://www.eurolab.nl/meststof-kalk-g.htm

Greetz, Omni



the joker said:
I have an honest question regarding organics. I've been doing a "living soil" approach for 2 years and was under the belief that I don't need to ph my dechlorinated water. That organics will naturally ph itself. It's a peat based mix with dolomite lime added.

I was recently told by a friend that I should always ph my water. However , he grows in a coco based organic mix.

I was going to switch the next round to the coco instead of peat , with the same formula. Any reason I would need to ph my water then?

This is my base mix... straight from Overgrow.

1 bale pro mix ( can be substituted with 7 cubic feet of coco)
2 bags fox farm ocean forest ( substituting roots organic this round)
1 large bag worm castings
2 cups bone meal
2 cups blood meal
1 cup kelp meal ( optional)
1 1/2 cups dolomite lime
Click to expand...
 
@Dorje
Those pots are 1,5 ltr Clematis pots :-)

But I used +/- 20% clay to boost the clay/humus complex.
The strain is Recovery Dame Blanche.
 

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The problem with fresh cocopeat is that bacteria try to break it down and by doing that they consume all the N, Mg and Ca they can find.
Resuting in a starving plant.
So, thats way they make special coco fertiliser.
But when you know this problem you can correct this.

Best you correct this problem by taking composted coco, or do it yourselve by adding compost or bacteria in powder form, lime, magnesia nitrate and calcium nitrate.
Let this composting until it is dark brown.
If the composting is going well it get hot. That is also good for killing unwanted bacteria and fungi.


Professor Iglofski said:
In my experience with growing organically in coco, the more organic nutrients and additives you add to the mix the more it will act like peat-based mixes, and the optimal run-off pH will raise to being between 6.5 and 7, pH will fluctuate less and become less important to measure. The less you add to the mix the lower the optimum pH range until it gets to around 6.1 with no additives and only organic teas. With no additives coco is basically a hydroponic medium, organic nutrients or not, and pH measurement can become very important. No matter what the method, in my experience if things go off in coco, run-off pH is one of the first things which should be considered.
Click to expand...
 
Omni go on, some poepel think by using the www they now every thing
Education like we had, they don't know, let them.
They are not worty to answer bro, You know and I know you know. RELAX let them do .............and think they now it better:monkey3:
 
Heyhey Friend,

You forget the smart people here, they read, learn and stay out of sight. :-)

The WWW is a big source of sense and non-sence indeed. The problem is that you need some basics to know what is what and you have to know how to combine.
 
Waldorff said:
Omni go on, some poepel think by using the www they now every thing
Education like we had, they don't know, let them.
They are not worty to answer bro, You know and I know you know. RELAX let them do .............and think they now it better:monkey3:
Click to expand...

I've found what Omni is saying to be interesting. The coco info is great for organic coco growers. That C:N ratio. Wouldn't mind hearing more about bio-fermentation though. The dutch are pretty darn smart. Hell, I'm running dutch lights and LOVE them.

Haven't seen you around in awhile, waldoff, nice to see ya again.
 
Waldorff said:
Omni go on, some poepel think by using the www they now every thing
Education like we had, they don't know, let them.
They are not worty to answer bro, You know and I know you know. RELAX let them do .............and think they now it better:monkey3:
Click to expand...

You seriously think that? That's a super insulting post you just made.

I have been growing for 10 years before I even owned a computer and have been running my organic system for 15 years, since 1999. What I am saying comes from my own experience thank you very much! And I have the results that prove that I know what I am doing as well. Also, I do not follow any popularized method, what I do is my own creation. If you want to compare dick size we can go there but I think you need to realize there are a lot of very experienced growers on this forum and you should show some respect.

Omni, thanks for posting, I do find your info interesting even if we don't agree with 100% of it, I enjoy hearing info from what you have learned in N Europe. The plants you posted look excellent as well!
 
Omni im finding your posts very insightful as a coco grower, thank you! Much of what you are saying makes much more sense to real farmers than traditional internet container gardening methods, especially for organic soil. Dumping tons of lime is not an economical option on a large scale nor is it natural...which should be the absolute goal of those claiming to use pure, "all organic" methods indoors.

Without hijacking the thread too badly...have the Dutch figured out a way to replace flavor when using coco as a hydro medium? Its the only weak point of coco medium IMO.
 
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