Vertical Scrog, continued, part 4, training

H

hydrorascal

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Training. A word most dread almost as much as 'cloning'.

Just like cloning becomes sooo simple after a few successful attempts, training becomes simple once a few things are understood.

First and foremost .... We are NOT looking to make a pretty plant. The total focus of 'training' is to maximize harvest, nothing more, nothing less.

If the plants you are training are the type you would like to clone, now is the time to get all ready for cloning.

Training involves 2 things. Removing non productive branches and removing overcrowded areas.

Using vertical scrog is intended to be a very intense grow using one 2 square feet of floor space and having a screen that is about 10 square feet. If you allow the plant to grow ungroomed you will detract from your final harvest by as much as 40%, proven fact by several who have not and have then done so using the same strain, same mother.

Training or grooming is up to you. Regardless of what your plant looks like when you finish grooming, remember that look until about a week before harvest. If you keep that first mental picture I can almost guarantee that you will not ever grow an ungroomed or untrained plant again.

Ok, break out the scissors and clean them with alcohol first and rinse them with peroxide. Both by the way are from the dollar store.

Starting from the bottom, cut off the 3 lowest branch sets. Yes all three of those fluff generators. If any are big enough to use as clones then save them for later.

Here is the hardest one for most growers. Topping. Yep, that lovely top growth is gonna come off. Count down from the top at least 2 branch sets, often times 3. Cut. Save the clone material.

Your plant should have had about 12 branch sets at the start of this. When ya finish there will be 6 to 8 branch sets. If you truly want to maximise harvest then from the main stem, remove each of the first 3 branch offshoots from each of the remaining branches.

The visual of the remaining plant is ... uuuuuuuuugly. Chopped up... no top, no bottom and little left in the middle. Again, remember that .. take a good mental picture. Your plants will change sooo fast you will be shocked.

Now... training to the screen. The plants will all want to grow to the light. This must be stopped. For the first couple of weeks, its easiest to just grab the plant and pull her away from the res center. Its also a good time to start to separate the remaining branches... guiding each one to where it gets the maximum light while not interferring with its neighbors.

After the first couple of weeks.. they will be large enough that its now time to more guide the individual branches to a place of maximum light. Always aim the upper branches up, the middle branches up and the lowest ones up. The exception being ... always focus on maximum light.

Proof of the effectiveness is at harvest. Untrained, ungroomed plants in this setup will harvest ~1z to maybe 1.5z. Groomed and trained, same strain, same mother the totals will just about double. The other advantage is much less trimming with the larger harvest.

Late last year one of the folks at harvest weighed one rather large bud. Dried the one bud weighed over 18 grams. This plant was severely groomed at the start of 12/12. The next largest one from the same plant was right at 14g. 2 buds.. 32g.... not too shabby for a 250w !! Oh..and plus all the 'smaller' buds from the same plant. The overall net from the one plant was waaay over 3z's.
 
Stress is a moot point (as I put the finishing touches on the target on my back)

In a 'normal' .. grow to the sky type grow, I agree that bending the top is good to help control the overall height of the plant.

The whole concept of this loooong thread is a 2 square foot trellis or screened or scrog type grow in which an unknowledgeable med user or their caregiver can quietly harvest every 60 to 75 days, strain dependent.

I fully agree that the top usually provides the fullest single part of the harvest. Consider if you will... having 2 or 3 or 4 of the 'top' type branches. Properly groomed or trimmed or trained.. that is what this setup will provide per plant.

Its kinda like having a regular 'grow for the sky' type plant and forcing the upper 3 or 4 branch sets out away from the main stalk. Plants love light and Im aware of those who move branches for better light up to 3 or 4 days before harvest.

Too many dont grow due to fear of failure. Too many rely on 'the guy down the block' for their meds.

Hydroponics is complicated and complex ONLY if you allow it to be.

I dont know how much simpler it can get than a 20 gallon tub with a powerhead in it, a top over the tub with some holes in it and a screen or trellis for the plants to grow up with the light hanging down the middle.

A few med folks have reported that placing the tub on a yard sale end table really works good. Keeps the entire plant right in front of you, all the time.
 
Tests have been run using 250 watt, 400 watt and 600 watt .. all HPS.

250's and 400's work very well in this style setup. 600's seem to put out too much heat to allow them to work well without a pretty large fan blowing up from the res top.
If I were to do a test grow using a 600w, there would be at least a 6" axial fan on the res with enough room under the fan so move some pretty decent air volume.

No need to be bending over ect with this... even if ya use a full to the top 20 gallon res ... it only weighs about 170 pounds. A yard sale old beat up end table with sturdy legs does a super job and typically only brings the full height up to right at 6 foot. This allows at least the top half of a plant to be at virtual eye level. For any who need it shorter, get a friend to saw the legs off a few inches. The res pretty well covers the full top so beauty is in the res output.

If bending, reaching ect is a real issue then get a 6 or 8" metal lazy susan from Home Depot,Lowes ect ... screw it to the center of a roughly 20" x 20" 1/2" or 3/4" plywood and put the res on that. Training ect becomes a matter of only moving the res round on the lazy susan.

Just make sure you watch the pump and heater power cords.

If you use a lazy susan its actually best and safest to tie those cords to the uprights and put a power strip at the top of the lamp cord X fitting setup.

Im not the originator of this design. There were many of us that worked on the original design on another site. Somehow I ended up doing the 'field' tests on the original design and have fine tuned the design over time with input from many, many sources.

One of the most positive changes was to add the X fitting across the top with the hole drilled in it for the lamp cord to go thru. Makes centering the bulb a 'no-brainer'

I stress again... from the intial design concept to its current design... the whole idea was to make a workable, simple, cheeeeep and effective design to allow any med user to become totally self sufficient.

Build it, use it, enjoy it. Self sufficiency is just around the corner.
 
Your questions are more than welcome.

I will say its much easier to use the same strain starting out. If ya dont then again the DWC setup allows you the flexibility to grow out different WELL trained strains.

A huge advantage of vertical scrog is you dont have to be as particular with the plants age as you introduce them to the growout setup. Ive found that plants from 8" to even an overgrown 16" will do nicely. Best seems to be starting them into the bloom cycle at around the 8/10" range. Even trained / trimmed most strains still go thru their normal stretch cycle.

The screen size of this unit is about 16/18" in diameter with the plants coming up very close to the outer edge of the screen. That gives any side of the setup only 8 or 9" from the 250w HPS. For a 400w, you should increase the inner size to 18/20" maybe up to even 22" more depending on the strain.

This setup does not require a reflector. Its a bare, hanging bulb right down the middle of the screen setup.

FWIW ... all my harvest numbers are for totally dried meds. Any decent yielding strain should provide at least 2 per plant with a decently trained / trimmed plant at the outset of bloom.

Most folks run 4 per 2 square foot DWC container. I cant comment on soil mixes as I have no experience in soil. A SOG type grow can use up to about 18 plants at the outset of bloom. Those need to be a max of 6" preferrably 4". That type of grow is NOT recommended for a beginner.

The med grower focus is to harvest 4 plants every ~60 days with an expected yield of 2 per plant. This has been done by experienced growers with some known very low yielding strains.


I also have nooo idea what to expect for yield or time frame of harvest in soil.
 
Chicken wire is for chickens....ask anyone who has ever tried to grow with it... its just waaaay to small to use. Then screen on the vertical has 3 x 3 holes in it.

vegging under a 400w and blooming under a 600w is a good idea. To be reeeally effective you are gonna need two bloom areas or your veg plants will be waaaaay too big to effectively or efficiently train

If you take clones at about day 14 of bloom from a ~60 day strain, your next group of 4 will be 46 days old. I would project them to be in the 24" +++ range for height which is pretty well totally useless for scrog. Horizontal scrog plants should be getting under the bloom light at between 8 and 12"

If you are looking for a 'perpetual' type harvest, my suggestion would be to veg under a fluro kept very very very close to the plants until the last 6 to 8 days of veg. THEN put them under the 400w for the final veg time.

If you are planning on going horizontal with your scrog and planning on having different strains, you are planning for a beginning scroggers worst nitemare.. imho..... another huge disadvantage of horizontal vs vertical. Blooming different strains with vertical isnt a big deal due to effectively having 4 screens to use.

The PH meter in my sig block is up to $31 plus freight so ebay is again the cheeeepest place to get one. The Hanna Checker is a hydro PH meter too. Soil ones are available at most Home Depot ect... for under $10.

The vertical DWC setup makes very logical sense. Plants can be harvested individually .. can be trained from bout any height.... dont require a 600w to harvest well either.
 
Vertical is just growing with a trellis or screen to support the plant.

Its actually easier and simpler than a horizontal scrog setup.

Hydro only costs more if you want it to. GH nutes average about 16
cents a res gallon or... a 20 gallon res at $3.20. Over the course of
an average 60 bloom cycle most folks 'add back' nutrients twice at
typically 1/3rd strength.

As RH pointed out, most hydro grows finish much faster than a soil grow too.

A huge advantage to hydro is .. if ya have a problem, ya just dump the res
and refill it.... a matter of 10/15 minutes work.... boom done.
 
Yep..to be posted soon. Flu has reeally kicked my butt...
 
Ok coolio, im just having trouble picturing it without diagrams hehe. :cigar3:

Hope you feel better soon :thumright:
 
Indeed it is hydrorascal was my mentor and I have to be honest I almost forgot about this thread so Thank you hundred Gram Oz.

Peace
 
Flow like water...old thread...part 4?....wheres the rest?....


There's five threads to this tutorial with a ton of great info that was a huge influence on my current set-up and grow style. It would be great if we could get them linked together and stickied. It deserves to be at the top of the page for all to see! :)

http://www.thecannacabana.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711
https://www.thecannacabana.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1555
https://www.thecannacabana.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1556
https://www.thecannacabana.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1558
https://www.thecannacabana.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1559
 
Thanks for all the info and above links, really helpful. I hope the thread starter is keeping well, peace.
 
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