Hydroponic > Soil

[JetsamSkunk]

And here's why:

Cannabis hyperaccumulates Manganese from soil. Cannabis growers call it "calmag deficiency" but it's Manganese toxicity.

Cannabis is a manganese sensitive crop. I learned this when my "living organic natural regenerative sustainably hillbilly American hay farmer tek" completely wrecked a crop of Hawaiian grown ganja. The locals knew better, but I convinced them otherwise, with my ingrained western culture of marketing/lies. The acids produced by healthy soil make manganese too avaliable for Cannabis. The only solution was to add enough limestone to lock out every trace mineral and phosphorus. This is when I decided to learn hydroponics, and ditch the natural organic woo woo. The fact that the hydro shop only sells trace minerals containing high levels of manganese made me switch to custom hydroponic nutes.

Today I grow the strongest smelling cannabis in the world, the strongest tasting Cannabis in the world, the most recreationally potent and most medicinally therapeutic Marijuana. Aand all the organic weed seems like it's been sprayed with fungicides. The organic scene confuses mold with thiols. All this Manganese toxic moldfest weed is making people dumb and boring.

The calcium magnesium and iron supplementation required to counteract Manganese has ruined cannabis quality. Boosting phosphorus and sulfur to "chase the skunk" does absolutely nothing but make Mn toxicity a guarantee in soil. That's why you were told to do it, by horrible people.

With Hydroponics you can find the absolute minimum ppb for Mn and base your system around that number. There's no excuse for all the bad hydroponic weed. This industry still uses bro nute. Genetic laziness cultural immorality and willing incompetence like this doesn't exist in other industries. The people running the weed nute companies and the weed grow houses are total frauds.


All the Cannabis ratios/recs I've looked at are absurd. No wonder today's weed sucks [from 99.9999% of grows].



Look at this crap. This is called sabotage. 99.9999% of the Cannabis industry seems to be fraudulent and scammy, down right lies spewing from their mouths. All of them.

Once you have a grasp on the medical potential of Cannabis, and most don't because of the quality, it seems apparent that all the bad cannabis info is a literal a conspiracy from Jazz pharma.. Almost all online infoavailable on growing Cannabis is bull shit.


Everyone says they want to grow the old school Skunk plants, yet no one's acting like it. More Calmag.

 

[ThePotanist]

I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion @JetsamSkunk and will try to offer my reasons why. I do think you have some good points though, and one I particularly agree with you about rather strongly.

If you are growing in soil and you have Mn toxicity it is due to either soil texture (clay soils have much more manganese than sand soils that Cannabis prefers), the soil pH is too low and has shifted speciation to Mn2+ (mobile form), or you have too much Mn as a result of applying fertilizer, even if its low manganese fert. Magnesium helps alleviate high Mn concentrations because it provides more resources for photosynthetic machinery. The symptoms of Mn toxicity are the result generally of phototoxicity and radical oxygen species (ROS) generation. Many herbicides work in the same mode of action, generation of ROS. The same problems will be seen, and likely exasperated in, hydroponic growth. Reactions to high and low nutrient levels are the exact same in soil or hydro, and they are generally very similar across plant taxa.

As a whole, people who grow in soil have been taught how to do so under production agriculture mindsets. That means we focus on the plant, we water the plant, we feed the plant, we harvest the plant. This is why we have unhealthy soil.
If we shift our focus to growing healthy soil instead of healthy plants, then we can't help but produce high quality crops. We need to grow healthy soils with healthy microbial communities. Physical and chemical characteristics of healthy soil buffer nutrient deficiencies and toxicities through regulating water dynamics and ion (nutrient) retention. Healthy soils also harbor diverse microbial communities that further help to buffer pH, nutrient concentrations, and nutrient availability. If you switch to growing soil instead of plants, the end product and ease of growing is unbelievable.

Now having defended soil grows (PhD in organic agriculture focusing on cannabis cultivation and soil health means I am compelled to do so), you make some good points. I think hydro growing is really cool, fun, and the growth rate can't be beat. I love cannabis grown from hydro as much as soil. I think you also nailed what is really important to do hydro successfully, mixing your own nutrient solutions. I absolutely love hearing about growers who do this and would likely be blown away by your results. The best point you made, i think, is how premixed "cannabis specific" products are awful. Thats Big Ag-corteva-monsanto-bayer energy in my opinion. Companies selling you something you begin to rely on and then all of a sudden the soil damage from these products makes them a necessity. If a product claims to be the secret sauce? Scam. I have seen more and more of these types of products, and even though they may seem less synthetic, this is the path that leads to reliance and the rise of Big Canna.

Since the 2018 Farm Bill many Universities with no financial stakeholder benefit have been studying Cannabis. Among those articles published are some great papers on nutrient needs, deficiencies, and toxicities. If you are ever interested, go to Google scholar and type in Cannabis + whatever non-broscience topic you're interested in. If its a pay wall article, see if Google scholar links directly to PDF. We (academics) have increased research papers exponentially in cannabis, we (again, us academics) are just dog shit at getting that info into the hands of those who would benefit the most.

Please feel free to let me know if there are ever any topics you or someone else wants to see some science about! Some topics are well published, others aren't, but most basic growing and development research is available. I hate the pay wall publishers and will gladly post downloads of articles if needed!

Love seeing people get this passionate about growing! Looking forward to seeing pics of your grow and hopefully being able to help with any science backed information you are looking for!!!

 

[Rico D]

And here's why:

Cannabis hyperaccumulates Manganese from soil. Cannabis growers call it "calmag deficiency" but it's Manganese toxicity.

Cannabis is a manganese sensitive crop. I learned this when my "living organic natural regenerative sustainably hillbilly American hay farmer tek" completely wrecked a crop of Hawaiian grown ganja. The locals knew better, but I convinced them otherwise, with my ingrained western culture of marketing/lies. The acids produced by healthy soil make manganese too avaliable for Cannabis. The only solution was to add enough limestone to lock out every trace mineral and phosphorus. This is when I decided to learn hydroponics, and ditch the natural organic woo woo. The fact that the hydro shop only sells trace minerals containing high levels of manganese made me switch to custom hydroponic nutes.

Today I grow the strongest smelling cannabis in the world, the strongest tasting Cannabis in the world, the most recreationally potent and most medicinally therapeutic Marijuana. Aand all the organic weed seems like it's been sprayed with fungicides. The organic scene confuses mold with thiols. All this Manganese toxic moldfest weed is making people dumb and boring.

The calcium magnesium and iron supplementation required to counteract Manganese has ruined cannabis quality. Boosting phosphorus and sulfur to "chase the skunk" does absolutely nothing but make Mn toxicity a guarantee in soil. That's why you were told to do it, by horrible people.

With Hydroponics you can find the absolute minimum ppb for Mn and base your system around that number. There's no excuse for all the bad hydroponic weed. This industry still uses bro nute. Genetic laziness cultural immorality and willing incompetence like this doesn't exist in other industries. The people running the weed nute companies and the weed grow houses are total frauds.


All the Cannabis ratios/recs I've looked at are absurd. No wonder today's weed sucks [from 99.9999% of grows].

View attachment 356498

Look at this crap. This is called sabotage. 99.9999% of the Cannabis industry seems to be fraudulent and scammy, down right lies spewing from their mouths. All of them.

Once you have a grasp on the medical potential of Cannabis, and most don't because of the quality, it seems apparent that all the bad cannabis info is a literal a conspiracy from Jazz pharma.. Almost all online infoavailable on growing Cannabis is bull shit.


Everyone says they want to grow the old school Skunk plants, yet no one's acting like it. More Calmag.

are you open to sharing your nutrient recipe? Any companies you see putting out a good product?

 

[Demonsofdirt]

How did cannabis survive and thrive all these years before hydroponics?

Is this thread trolling or you actually looking to start an educational debate? Those are some pretty large claims to make as far as the best in the world.

 

[kushyman]

Today I grow the strongest smelling cannabis in the world, the strongest tasting Cannabis in the world, the most recreationally potent and most medicinally therapeutic Marijuana. And all the organic weed seems like it's been sprayed with fungicides. The organic scene confuses mold with thiols. All this Manganese toxic moldfest weed is making people dumb and boring.

confident intro....isn’t it the genetics that make people dumb and bored?

Once you have a grasp on the medical potential of Cannabis, and most don't because of the quality, it seems apparent that all the bad cannabis info is a literal a conspiracy from Jazz pharma.. Almost all online infoavailable on growing Cannabis is bull shit.

don't you think cannabis potency.. and particularly what recreational or medicinal effect it has...

MOSTLY has to do with genetics?

first hydro system in 1978.

.a lot of water under the bridge ..

loved it..

growing in dirt and worm compost since last year..

its pretty good stuff..

 

[nannymouse]

quite a juxtaposition of writing/debate styles in the first two posts.

Anyway, my question is: Do 'veg matter' and the trichomes absorb nutrients equally? @ThePotanist ...or anybody?

 

[ThePotanist]

@nannymouse that is a really interesting question!! I havent seen any research that addresses this, but I can an offer a hypothesis.

I would think that the first priority would be veg matter. They have the photosynthesis machinery and are the engines of growth. In terms of storage in more chemically simple terms, id think the veg matter would have more. Trichomes though are storage organs for nutrient-expensive secondary metabolites. I bet there are considerably large concentrations of nutrients incorporated into complex chemicals in trichomes. I also suspect that the nutrient distribution favors trichomes and reproductive tissue the longer the plant is in flower and the closer to senescence.

I have read some articles that seem to imply that more nutrient acquisition and incorporation in veg growth results in more secondary metabolite production and yield in flower. This would make me think that the plant stores nutrients in veg and then pull from those reserves in flower. This isn't the best explanation from me, but there are some plants that need to reach a critical nutrient level to begin flowering and this would be similar to that. This could also be a possible explanation for Cannabis accumulating so many ions from soil. I will argue it doesn't reach the threshold needed to be a hyperaccumulator, but I think its more like a scavenger crop like tillage radish.

An interesting experiment might be to grow plants in veg with different levels of nutrient concentrations. Grow them simultaneously and identically except veg nutrients. Flip to flower and feed at identical rates. Should help understand how veg nutrient levels influence flower output.

I love that question you asked! Sounds like a great project for a new professor to do...

 

[nannymouse]

Well, thanks. I would think that with all the concentrates these days, that there would have already been tests or at least data that would shed some light on the matter. Well, you have the contacts, get em on it!

 

[180]

@ThePotanist Your comment about tillage radish was interesting and reminded me of the old adage that, "it's a weed." A C4 weed that grows like nobody's business, given the correct conditions (runty cultivars notwithstanding ).

 

[ThePotanist]

Well, thanks. I would think that with all the concentrates these days, that there would have already been tests or at least data that would shed some light on the matter. Well, you have the contacts, get em on it!

I have admittedly only focused on heavy metals in concentrates so there could very well be more out there that I just haven't seen. I'll try and look for some articles and see if anything pops up!

 

[nannymouse]

When i was using neem, i wondered if a person could just use it in veg stage and it would stay in that part of the plant, even when finished. Or if it climbed up into the green matter, if it just doesn't get into the trichs. I guess that i wonder if the trichs contain everything that the green matter contains, at harvest time.

 

[ThePotanist]

When i was using neem, i wondered if a person could just use it in veg stage and it would stay in that part of the plant, even when finished. Or if it climbed up into the green matter, if it just doesn't get into the trichs. I guess that i wonder if the trichs contain everything that the green matter contains, at harvest time.

So this i do have some information on. Neem works by contact and generally works to suffocate pests. It is non-systemic so it is unlikely to be found later on. Often when using neem, growers see a difference after the first application and stop applying. Then in a few weeks, the problem returns. This is because the neem only killed visible, active pests. To get the most from neem id consider a 3 application step. Initial application, apply again 7-10 days later to kill any new hatches, and again a week later to be extra sure. This should allow you to catch all lifestyles that are vulnerable and the extra applications should help with escapees.

I am unaware of any systemic pesticides labeled in Cannabis, so I can t recommend using any. This tends to be state and country specific though, I'd suspect Canada has something labeled as they are ahead of the U.S. on getting products to market.

I have not directly tested trichomes for contaminants, but my guess is that they are likely from the surface and not interior. Teichomes ha e their own secretory cells so my guess is they only get filled with processed compounds but if any information suggests otherwise my opinion will change. From what I've seen now though, teichomes seem pretty clean on the inside. I informally surveyed some concentrate brands and none had contaminants but stated concentrations of cannabinoids were variable and not always correct.

 

[Anthem27.5]

So this i do have some information on. Neem works by contact and generally works to suffocate pests. It is non-systemic so it is unlikely to be found later on. Often when using neem, growers see a difference after the first application and stop applying. Then in a few weeks, the problem returns. This is because the neem only killed visible, active pests. To get the most from neem id consider a 3 application step. Initial application, apply again 7-10 days later to kill any new hatches, and again a week later to be extra sure. This should allow you to catch all lifestyles that are vulnerable and the extra applications should help with escapees.

I am unaware of any systemic pesticides labeled in Cannabis, so I can t recommend using any. This tends to be state and country specific though, I'd suspect Canada has something labeled as they are ahead of the U.S. on getting products to market.

I have not directly tested trichomes for contaminants, but my guess is that they are likely from the surface and not interior. Teichomes ha e their own secretory cells so my guess is they only get filled with processed compounds but if any information suggests otherwise my opinion will change. From what I've seen now though, teichomes seem pretty clean on the inside. I informally surveyed some concentrate brands and none had contaminants but stated concentrations of cannabinoids were variable and not always correct.

Glad to have you at the Cabana Potanist. Your knowledge will certainly helps people raise their game.

 

[ThePotanist]

Glad to have you at the Cabana Potanist. Your knowledge will certainly helps people raise their game.

@Anthem27.5 i hope so!! Cannabis is such a cool place to work because Big Ag hasn't gotten into it yet. My hope is that I can help keep them away and bring the smaller growers the information they need to be competitive, sustainable, and profitable!

Looking forward to contributing more around here and getting to meet even more of yall!

 

[Rico D]

@Anthem27.5 i hope so!! Cannabis is such a cool place to work because Big Ag hasn't gotten into it yet. My hope is that I can help keep them away and bring the smaller growers the information they need to be competitive, sustainable, and profitable!

Looking forward to contributing more around here and getting to meet even more of yall!

grateful for your contributions thus far. Thank you!

 

[Green Mopho]

And here's why:

Cannabis hyperaccumulates Manganese from soil. Cannabis growers call it "calmag deficiency" but it's Manganese toxicity.

Cannabis is a manganese sensitive crop. I learned this when my "living organic natural regenerative sustainably hillbilly American hay farmer tek" completely wrecked a crop of Hawaiian grown ganja. The locals knew better, but I convinced them otherwise, with my ingrained western culture of marketing/lies. The acids produced by healthy soil make manganese too avaliable for Cannabis. The only solution was to add enough limestone to lock out every trace mineral and phosphorus. This is when I decided to learn hydroponics, and ditch the natural organic woo woo. The fact that the hydro shop only sells trace minerals containing high levels of manganese made me switch to custom hydroponic nutes.

Today I grow the strongest smelling cannabis in the world, the strongest tasting Cannabis in the world, the most recreationally potent and most medicinally therapeutic Marijuana. Aand all the organic weed seems like it's been sprayed with fungicides. The organic scene confuses mold with thiols. All this Manganese toxic moldfest weed is making people dumb and boring.

The calcium magnesium and iron supplementation required to counteract Manganese has ruined cannabis quality. Boosting phosphorus and sulfur to "chase the skunk" does absolutely nothing but make Mn toxicity a guarantee in soil. That's why you were told to do it, by horrible people.

With Hydroponics you can find the absolute minimum ppb for Mn and base your system around that number. There's no excuse for all the bad hydroponic weed. This industry still uses bro nute. Genetic laziness cultural immorality and willing incompetence like this doesn't exist in other industries. The people running the weed nute companies and the weed grow houses are total frauds.


All the Cannabis ratios/recs I've looked at are absurd. No wonder today's weed sucks [from 99.9999% of grows].

View attachment 356498

Look at this crap. This is called sabotage. 99.9999% of the Cannabis industry seems to be fraudulent and scammy, down right lies spewing from their mouths. All of them.

Once you have a grasp on the medical potential of Cannabis, and most don't because of the quality, it seems apparent that all the bad cannabis info is a literal a conspiracy from Jazz pharma.. Almost all online infoavailable on growing Cannabis is bull shit.


Everyone says they want to grow the old school Skunk plants, yet no one's acting like it. More Calmag.

Where did you get these recommended numbers? Most labs have no idea what the target ranges are, they just go with averages of everything they have tested.

While I agree that nutrient companies do all sorts of tricks in their formulations and marketing to sell more product, I don't believe it is in their interest to give you a manganese toxicity. Now cannabis does love manganese, it helps increase and regulate potassium metabolism, as well as produce oils and lipids. It is an element that I have played with extensively in both ionic and chelated forms. Its not that easy to get an outright manganese toxicity unless you are really going hard with it or really letting your root zone become acidic. Lime will only bring you closer to 7.0 pH, not higher, so its just bringing you out of the acidic range if your soil is too acid, not locking anything out. This should be normal practice already in soils and ensuring you are at the ideal 6.5-6.6 soil pH range.

It should also be noted that chelated iron will not displace manganese, especially if that manganese is also in a chelated form. So the iron in calmag products will not counteract excess manganese, you will just end up with a lot of both. Iron and manganese deficiencies do look very similar and both elements are required (I prefer Fe>Mn, but only by about 30%).

 

[kushyman]

Today I grow the strongest smelling cannabis in the world, the strongest tasting Cannabis in the world, the most recreationally potent and most medicinally therapeutic Marijuana. Aand all the organic weed seems like it's been sprayed with fungicides. The organic scene confuses mold with thiols. All this Manganese toxic moldfest weed is making people dumb and boring.

oh fuck yeh..

I have been trying to find this thread since I first saw it..

just saw a similar post in a thread here today and thought it has to be the same guy....

I was hoping you would come back...

dude .........you are SO awesome.....

I am following you now......you have an almost 75 year old fan

where have you and your science been all my life..?

 

[kushyman]

It should also be noted that chelated iron will not displace manganese,

in the late 80’s I wrote a song called

In Canada

here is verse 1

oh in Canada its a big country
and some place flat
and some is hilly
and we got lots of space
where there ain’t nobody
cause most of the time
its just big deep freeze
and we got lots of trees
and we got MANGANESE
and we chew up the land
for the industry
cause we got to make money
like everybody

IN Canada
IN Canada
IN Canada
IN Canada