any one making vermi compost?
- Thread starter Dozee
- Start date
I vermicompost to recycle soil, get rid of garden waste and soon to turn all kitchen scrap into nutrients by including bokashi buckets. I don't understand why you want spidermites in your bin though, I've introduced Hypoaspis miles as predators to eat any gnat/thrip larvae or diapaused mites (although two spotted mites shouldn't diapause at normal grow room conditions, unless your talking about another type). Happy to help however I can though.
I was worried about that myself when I started looking at living soil mixes (most of which are based off of "Coot's mix" and include neem meal, it's like the modern version of Vic High's supersoil recipe) until I found this study that looked at the effects of adding neem extracts and azadirachtin to soil. It found that while azadirachtin reduced microbial activity, neem extract actually increased microbial activity despite it also reducing it during the in vitro studies. So I'm less concerned, especially as I haven't been able to confirm exactly how much azadirachtin is left in the meal after processing.
https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-95162015000400020
I was worried about that myself when I started looking at living soil mixes (most of which are based off of "Coot's mix" and include neem meal, it's like the modern version of Vic High's supersoil recipe) until I found this study that looked at the effects of adding neem extracts and azadirachtin to soil. It found that while azadirachtin reduced microbial activity, neem extract actually increased microbial activity despite it also reducing it during the in vitro studies. So I'm less concerned, especially as I haven't been able to confirm exactly how much azadirachtin is left in the meal after processing.
https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-95162015000400020
Seems like a healthy natural aversion and makes sense to be wary about any pesticide use. I didn't mean to be argumentative, I just like providing info as I also worried about how it'd effect the soil ecology. There are benefits to using neem cake beyound the nutrients like helping with nitrification of the soil. I hear what you're saying about being cautious about any pesticide and personally I'm moving towards predators instead of pesticides but I also don't know enough specifically about neem cake/meal to say whether it's an issue. Most literature says it's safe and effective though for what it's worth, with the usual caveat that it hasn't been studied for using in a crop meant to be smoked.
Coot's recipe is designed for no external inputs, from what I remember the neem cake helped balance the soil by avoiding nitrification and also kept fungus gnats/thrip larvae out of the soil as it's meant to be run for years in supposed "no-till" systems. Fundamentally different idea behind growing by trying to replicate the outdoor ecology inside on a smaller scale. I don't have much opinion about it personally as I haven't tried it yet, there's enough decent growers getting good results that I'll experiment with it though and decide after 6 months what I think about it. Although I'd have to double check as I don't know if the two mixes I plan to test actually have neem in them.
I worry more about what pesticides are used, how toxic/persistent they are and how they're used. Neem is one of the safer ones out there so I don't worry too much, although I wouldn't go out of my way to add it as I assume the companies making the mix know more about it them me and trust them. Well, enough to test the products and decide which to try in a full bed that is.
These kind of discussions are why I enjoy the Cabana, it's easy to share info and agree to disagree without ego's getting in the way.
I've seen a bunch of stuff from a guy on ICmag going on about it but I'm not convinced as the main abstract they reference about azadirachtin poisoning is talking about people who directly consume 20-250ml of neem oil. Considering how much we dilute it, how short the half life is and instability (I assume there'd be significant lose to pyrolysis) and how high the toxic doses need to be I don't think it's convincing. Combined with the fact a lot of his proof comes back to personal anecdotes and how he ignores that there's a lot of people suffering from C.H.S. (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) that don't have the same experience, I think there needs to be a more objective source backed by controlled studies. Again, the caveat being there aren't proper studies on the effects of different pesticides when used on a product that's smoked. My assumption about lose to pyrolysis could be completely wrong, maybe there's a by-product created we don't know about. Neem oil is used extensively in agriculture though around the world, so if it was as simple as "neem is toxic and causes CHS" as some suggest I'd expect to see a much wider expression of C.H.S rather then seeing a specific rise in areas that have legalised.
We probably shouldn't hijack this thread though as we're completely off topic about vermicomposting.
Dozee
Herbsmith
Neemmeal, crab meal,fish bone meal ,kelp,oyster shell ,minirals , and I sprout different seeds on top. And till
. Just want to add beneficial mites and keepthem alive and breeding in vermi compost. To combat mites and root aphids just in case. I seems after a week the neem smell goes away. Hopefully after worms eat the by product is good food for preditory mites. I know other beneficials like it. I have seen rolly Polly , centipede,even ants eating in my bins outside..
Also any one doing water only " aside from top dressor with out" mixes?
. Just want to add beneficial mites and keepthem alive and breeding in vermi compost. To combat mites and root aphids just in case. I seems after a week the neem smell goes away. Hopefully after worms eat the by product is good food for preditory mites. I know other beneficials like it. I have seen rolly Polly , centipede,even ants eating in my bins outside..
Also any one doing water only " aside from top dressor with out" mixes?
Last edited:
Ah, that makes more sense if you're worried about predator mites/beneficial bugs being affected. From my fairly limited understanding there shouldn't be an issue with using neem cake and beneficial bugs, the good bugs eat other bugs and have little interaction with the soil. Fungus gnat or thrip larvae will be effected though (supposedly, the only references I've seen to neem cake is as a nematicide). Hope that helps
Lol Sadly I didn't add any new varieties this year as I could barely squeeze all the ones I grow into our tiny little backyard patch. I will be testing a fall vs spring planting of the creoles I grow (rose de lautrec and burgundy). Adding any new tomatoes this year?
I can't find any info on residual azadirachtin content in neem meal, so I have no idea how persistent/effective it is or how often it's suppose to be reapplied.
I'm very skeptical of the claims about "no-till" as well but I'm interested in trying it for a couple reasons; if I can reduce the eco-footprint of the grow by not using bottle nutrients and turning kitchen scraps into nutes with bokashi/worms (also reducing cost to make it more affordable for me and my patient) that's a win, if I can reduce my labour/time by using straight pH'd water instead of mixing nutes each time that's another plus. On a personal level I'm obsessed with biochar which would be much more functional in a deep bed living soil system (Cornell has vids on field studies showing same growth as fertilised crops with just biochar, my limited anecdotal experience was the section of my buddies field that we mixed charcoal into grew twice as high as the surrounding area). If the claims about increased quality are true that's even better.
I don't mean to sound like a booster though, I'm very sceptical about it all which is why I'll try it on a 2x4ft section of the garden before forming a solid opinion. Like most things I'd rather test it myself to see what I think instead of reading others opinions and deciding how much weight to put on them.
I can't find any info on residual azadirachtin content in neem meal, so I have no idea how persistent/effective it is or how often it's suppose to be reapplied.
I'm very skeptical of the claims about "no-till" as well but I'm interested in trying it for a couple reasons; if I can reduce the eco-footprint of the grow by not using bottle nutrients and turning kitchen scraps into nutes with bokashi/worms (also reducing cost to make it more affordable for me and my patient) that's a win, if I can reduce my labour/time by using straight pH'd water instead of mixing nutes each time that's another plus. On a personal level I'm obsessed with biochar which would be much more functional in a deep bed living soil system (Cornell has vids on field studies showing same growth as fertilised crops with just biochar, my limited anecdotal experience was the section of my buddies field that we mixed charcoal into grew twice as high as the surrounding area). If the claims about increased quality are true that's even better.
I don't mean to sound like a booster though, I'm very sceptical about it all which is why I'll try it on a 2x4ft section of the garden before forming a solid opinion. Like most things I'd rather test it myself to see what I think instead of reading others opinions and deciding how much weight to put on them.
